{The List} - Technology

[ThePlagueRat]

How is that? I need an example.

[PresidentMarcos]

Hmm. Instead of having an entire Civ research a tech, perhaps allow cities to research techs? Multiple cities make for faster research times. It would make the game interesting.

[TimeTraveler]

Originally posted by PresidentMarcos
Hmm. Instead of having an entire Civ research a tech, perhaps allow cities to research techs? Multiple cities make for faster research times. It would make the game interesting.

That sound like a good idea. I might want to add to that with the idea of a city not being able to research a certain technology without a particular city improvement, like a workshop for developing motorized transportation, or some other requirement accomplished.

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by TimeTraveler

Originally posted by President Marcos Hmm. Instead of having an entire Civ research a tech, perhaps allow cities to research techs? Multiple cities make for faster research times. It would make the game interesting.

That sound like a good idea. I might want to add to that with the idea of a city not being able to research a certain technology without a particular city improvement, like a workshop for developing motorized transportation, or some other requirement accomplished.

I'm gonna go on record as saying I'm totally against the idea of de-centralizing research. I think that's a lot of added micromanagement for no real gain in the fun factor.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by TimeTraveler

Originally posted by wrylachlan
That sound like a good idea. I might want to add to that with the idea of a city not being able to research a certain technology without a particular city improvement, like a workshop for developing motorized transportation, or some other requirement accomplished.

I'm gonna go on record as saying I'm totally against the idea of de-centralizing research. I think that's a lot of added micromanagement for no real gain in the fun factor.

I compeletely agree...

Why would a City Improvement have anything to do with tech research? I can understand that you might require a particular city improvement to build Unit X, but not research it in the first place.

Wonders, Governments and Civilizations are global types and those I can see theoretically influencing tech choices/costs/whatever... but certainly nothing locally would.

[PresidentMarcos]

No, no...have each city build a certain improvement...say...something like a school or a university or something...that allows it to generate science. Then, have the city go ahead and research to it's heart's content.

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by PresidentMarcos No, no...have each city build a certain improvement...say...something like a school or a university or something...that allows it to generate science. Then, have the city go ahead and research to it's heart's content.

This is essentially how it works now, or are you advocating eliminating the science/luxury slider and making science spending a fixed rate based on city improvements? If you are advocating allowing different cities in your civ to research different techs, I stand by my assessment: A lot of micro for not much fun.

[MrBaggins]

He's basically saying have individual cities each do invidually different research. Euugggcchh. Where's a vomit smiley when you need one?

[ThePlagueRat]

I, on the other side, would advocate for advanced sliders and more sliders who actually works. Like those in domestic/religious/military budget screens in EU2 and the productivity - public works slider in CTP.

[lajzar]

Definitely the sliders should allow budget in increments of 1%. 10% was simply too granular.

I also want a public works slider.

Oh, and military (the more advanced units anyway) should cost both shields and gold to maintain. Having large militaries should hurt. I'd say food too, but only if the food scale is made less granular. 1 food point represents enough to feed 5000 men after all, or much more in larger cities.

[ThePlagueRat]

Yeah a defense budget, so if you set the payment slider on say below 80%, the combat efficiency could suffer or below 50% the units could be degraded or even desert around 10%. Also a mobilization rate slider to compensate for the mobilize-button, which was only on or off. And if you also set a supply slider (or make that integrate with moblization rate) which would cost food and/or public works for materials, that slider could trigger different support levels with different penalties or bonuses for units.

Separate sliders for air, naval and ground units. And a whole lot of other sliders for other departments, like culture, research, or welfare, etc.

[ScipioX]

How about something of a tiered system? Instead of having direct prerequisites, you would have to have such-and-such many (research points, techs, whatever) in one tier in order to jump to the next? It would cost a lot to make it to the next tier, but any leftover techs from previous tiers would be much cheaper. Maybe charge to get to the tier itself, and then pay normally for the techs? Or give one away as a bonus when you get the tier?
Another thought I had a long time ago was having specializations in techs, like Gunpowder would give you an Arquebusier, and you would then research the specialization of Matchlocks to get Musketeers. Specializations wouldn't count as techs for the purposes of getting future techs, and you wouldn't have to research all the spech's to get to the next tech. This sort of thing might allow you to prune the tech tree a little by being able to fold techs into others as specializations, so you don't have as many dead ends or useless techs.

[lajzar]

We should drop the civ3 limits on min/max time to research a tech. Max time should depend only on your ability to research, and if you choose not to invest...

As for minimum time, that 4 turn minimum was obvioulsy put in to prevent powerhouses from gaining 2 techs or more a turn. What we need is a naturalisti way to prevent the same thing.

I suggest that each time you gain a tech, all your cities suffer 1 unhappiness (possibly modified by city size) for a period of 5 turns. This unhappiness period reflects teh lost jobs and unemployment as workers are forced to retrain out of economic necessity as the social climate changes. It also reflects the peoples' uncertainty in a changing society. The philosopher Weber had a lot to say about this aspect - I think he called it anomie.

As long as research is slow, this isn't a serious problem. However, if youa re researching a tech every turn, you are in effect imposing 5 unhappy citizens on your people due to the rate of social change. This gives a built in penalty to superfast science that also reflects the real world effect of fast rates of technological progress.

[ThePlagueRat]

Ok, if that should be the case I think that Weber thing should only apply to certain techs. Such as Indutrialization and Feudalism which changes peoples lives radically, but not to techs like Writing or Philosophy because afaik they had no negative effect.

[lajzar]

Umm, I think every tech had a radical effect. With the invention of writing, suddenly all these strange markings appeared everywhere, and illiterate people, formerly normal, suddenly had reason to feel out of place. Just because you don't get put out of a job, it doesn't mean that you are blind to the changes in society that the new ideas/technology have made.

Besides, limiting it to a few key techs would also mean it no longer acts as a check against the scientific powerhouse civ, which is the primary purpose of this idea.